There’s a bit of a situation over at a Dosh Dosh right now, whereby the blogger, Maki, has been outright accused of plagiarism, and the whole thing has deteriorated into a bit of a mess, with comment and counter-comment, readers taking sides and a bit of flaming in the mix - just another normal day in internet land you might say.
From what I can see of it, SEOPosition accused Maki of ripping off an article, stealing his images and then ended the post with the rather unambiguous statement
Perhaps I’ll spend some time looking at other posts by him to see if he’s the actual creator of the stories on his site.
Which I interpret as an insinuation that other posts may contain stolen content.
Regular readers of this blog will know that Maki is a visitor, and whose blog I have read and linked to virtually since it’s inception and he is someone I would consider a friend, so sure I’m biased, but if I was to accept the accusations of theft at face value, I would also have to accept that Maki’s thought process ran something like this:
- Launch Dosh Dosh
- Spend hours, weeks, months researching and writing comprehensive articles on aspects of making money blogging.
- Spend an equally long time visiting other blogs, promoting on forums, building a reputation.
- Reach a point where the like of Darren Rowse and John Chow are regular readers and linkers, traffic is excellent and a solid reputation is becoming established.
- Throw it all away by ripping off an average article from a blog few have heard of, stealing images he could have made himself in minutes. Not all of the images though, just some of them.
My personal opinion on the likelihood of this happening can best be termed: “Yeah, right”. I mean, what would be the point?
I’m not going to re-hash all the various points made there, as you can read them by following the linked article above, but most of them are a little wobbly - ‘copied’ images are actually different (check out the PayPerPost screen grabs for example) and if you think that by expressing the opinion that Sponsored Reviews is a similar service to ReviewMe, someone is guilty of plagiarism, then you really need to get off the web before a blog scraper actually does steal your content, as it’ll probably cause a nervous breakdown.
Why am I even mentioning this? Because mud sticks.
This situation should not have gone public - it was originally discussed by email, until SEOPoint made their accusations public, and Maki had no choice but to also respond publicly. SEOPoint have apparently brought this to the attention of their lawyers, and personally, I wouldn’t have thought they should have made these accusations public until after the legal option had been explored fully, for a whole variety of reasons.
Now, someone’s first impression of the Dosh Dosh blog could be negative, should they encounter it via SEOPoint - had Maki not responded publicly, then you would most likely accept the accusatory article as fact. Even with the response, some readers will take the accusation at face value, without researching further, and consider Maki a content thief.
Brian from SEOPoint has since retracted some of his comments, like the one quoted above, to apparently focus on the size of the images being the key proof of theft, despite some images being different, and the others containing content that is unlikely to change from one week to the next, but the point for all of us to remember is that once written, it is virtually impossible to completely retract something on the internet - there is a real permanence to opinions stated on the web that we should all carefully remember whenever we hit ‘publish’. Mud sticks.
I am in no position to state unequivocally who is right or wrong in this issue, although I consider the chances of Maki stealing this article to be so low, for reasons outlined above, as to be negligible and that SEOPoint were wrong to make public accusations at this stage, when legal options are still apparently being considered.
But there are some key points for us all to learn from this:
- If you seriously think your content has been stolen, privately contact the blogger responsible and discuss the situation.
- If you are unsatisfied with the response, consider whether you really want to: a. Drop the issue, or: b. Take it further.
- If you want to take it further, get legal advice, but remember that the only real winners out of legal action are the lawyers, as you leave yourself open to losses too.
- If the lawyer says there’s no case, there’s a clue for you to drop it. If they say there IS a case, the last thing you need to do right now is publicise it on your blog. Personally, I wouldn’t throw the accusations around, until after I had a legal judgment in my favour. Even then, I’d think twice.
- Even if the other person IS stealing your content, firing off emotional accusations in a public forum (your blog) leaves you open to return action - see point 3.
I’m not sure what SEOPoint hoped to gain from making these accusations public - they have denied seeking the extra traffic that has resulted, so I cannot see what benefit they will obtain from this situation. Indeed, they have spoilt their own reputation in my eyes, and I suspect many others.
The simple fact is that the internet in general, and blogging in particular is derivative and incestuous, and there can be no copyright on ideas for posts, else 95% of bloggers may as well give up now. I have seen reviews of paid blogging sites before either of these two, and I will see them again. My own post on Social Networking sites is very derivative, despite every word being original- I wasn’t the first to write a post about them, I won’t be the last.
Unless someone has cut and pasted every word, hotlinked your images or stolen some watermarked photos, content theft is near impossible to prove without expensive legal action, and frankly, who wants that? To be honest, beyond perhaps a friendly inquiring email, you’re better off moving on and forgetting it. In my own humble opinion, what you should not do is fire off public accusations that you may later have to defend, and that will reflect as much upon your reputation as they do upon the blogger accused.
It’s a pretty sad situation, and I hope one that is resolved quickly and privately.





22 users commented in " Mud Sticks-Content Theft Or Not "
Follow-up comment rss or Leave a TrackbackI’ve never been to SEOPoint (don’t plan to either now) but have been reading Dosh for about 1-2 months. The reason I go to Dosh is the reason I don’t think Maki did it: I can’t find any other place with such well thought out articles and detail.
You’re right when you say it’s a pretty sad situation but I think it’ll disappear over time. Maki delivers top quality content at an insane rate. Every single post delivers and, as a result, Dosh Dosh will be around and read for a lot longer than SEOPosition.
Anybody who’s ever produced content for a blog and worked with the SnagIt screen capture program could easily compare the two articles and determine that no copying took place. Maki’s articles are general in their subject matter, but as everyone has said, they are very well thought-out and very well-written. Maki has a distinct voice and style. If there’s anyone who doesn’t need to steal, it’s Maki. Reputation is everything on the web, and, frankly, Maki’s reputation is far stronger than SEOPoint’s. SEOPoint has hurt itself by doing everything backwards and wrong in addressing this, unfortunately.
Chris,
I actually think that they had no legal case and thats why they resorted to public attacks of that nature. Their main claim on plagiarism was that the images were stolen from their website and that itself is very weak.
Factual inaccuracies abound for at least for five of the images. ReviewMe, Payperpost and InBlogads being the most obvious because they are completely different. The others show that the crop is different as well: my screens show more of the left edge of the homepage than his screens. You can crop an image down but you can’t add to it. This is something that is impossible to engineer unless I took the screenshots myself, which is naturally what happened.
Michael is right. Reputation is everything on the web, especially when the level of anonymity is higher than it is offline..and like you suggested, people often believe what they read too easily without further investigation.
I do want to move pass this distasteful incident which is quite an energy drainer and hopefully he’ll drop the whole thing when he realizes that he’s not making sense at all. I don’t know him as a person but it seems unreasonable not to accept an explanation of what happened or even the possibility of a real coincidence.
Very unfortunate situation.
I don’t think your image is going to be tarnished by this incident. In fact, I am not going to set foot in SEOPoint knowing the blogger’s unreasonable claim. As you mentioned Maki, SEOPoint doesn’t even seem to consider the remote possibility of a coincidence!
Chris, good point made in your article about taking a moment to ponder before one hits ‘Publish’.
Thanks all, especially Maki who I should imagine is pretty weary of the whole thing.
With each new fact that comes to light, SEOPoint’s position looks ever weaker - I’m subscribed to the comments of Dosh-Dosh’s post, and the responses from Brian to various commenters (especially the latest about being an attorney)seem to be getting a little hysterical.
I’ve seen this kind of behaviour in forums, but one blogger to another? Weird.
Good luck with it Maki, if things continue in this vein it may be time to give the ‘bannage’ plugin a try
i thought you turned your feed on partial i was gonna raise hell
Well, Maki. Somebody just don’t like you to be too famous. There will always a “bad” guys in this life that will try to slap your face down to the earth while you are flying within your popularity. I never Heard about SEOPoint too! They are just a part of guys who want an immediate exposure by finding problem with the popular blog.
I’ve heard before, there are some group of peoples who really earn big money just by making problem with famous people.
I don’t know how is their tricks, but you sure need to be careful to this kind of guys out there!
I think you’re right Ken, it is method of cheap publicity, but usually turns round & bites you.
Hey Matthew, I wondered if anyone would notice!
I thought they’d fixed that issue with WP 2.2, obviously not, so the full feed plugin is now in use!
Hi,
Your write up in accurate in parts but you left out some important details.
1) Maki’s IP address is tracked on the blog reviews page we wrote hours and the day before he posted his to the public.
2) Maki told me via email (just to note - we did exchange emails before anything was ever posted. You said differently above) that he was never on our website at all until after he posted his article. Then why would I have his IP address on that particular page for nearly 25 minutes total over several spans of time before he published his?
3) I never said that all images were the same. If you read the original post, I even say that he created different ones for some of the blog review sites.
4) On #2 above, he then said that he didn’t recall ever being on the site even though it was just a few hours before he published the same concept blog post on his site and then went on to say in his post that it might have been someone from his home but just not him. That’s a very strange coincidence that doesn’t add up.
5) Maki says above (which he hasn’t said anywhere else that I’ve read so far) that his “screens show more of the left edge of the homepage than his screens”
This isn’t correct. For the handful that are the same screen capture, the images are the same screen capture to the exact pixel!
So, I think it’s only fair that these points be made and I surely hope that you publish this comment because I’ve published all comments on our site and have nothing to hide as well as adamantly stand behind the facts pointed out above.
Hey Brian,
Why would I not post your comment? I only delete spam, not opinions.
FWIW I did say that you emailed each other first, before going public, it’s the going public without resolution that I really don’t understand - If you’re going down the legal route, why go public first?
I acknowledged some of the images were different, which makes the chances of ’stealing’ some of the others even less likely surely? Why take would he make his own screengrabs of some services, cut to 502 pixels and then ’steal’ some of yours? That makes absolutely no sense at all.
I cannot explain the IP issue, other than to note that IP logging is no proof of a particular person reading an article, but really very little of this bears up at all: You have to ask yourself what he would stand to gain by doing what you accuse him of: I can’t see anything really, as he’s proven on a daily basis that he can write in-depth, well researched articles with unique graphics, so why change now?
You say you’re taking legal advice on this matter? If they think you have a case, I can’t believe they would have wanted you to post what you did. If they say you haven’t got a case, then again you shouldn’t have posted - so why did you?
I just feel (and maybe I didn’t make the point clearly enough) that you (or anyone else in other cases) should not have made that accusatory post until the issue is resolved, legally if necessary. You have made potentially libelous comments that will be available to read even if you delete the original post, without providing substantive evidence. It’s a risky thing to do for yourself.
Nobody should make written accusations about anyone else without having some rock hard evidence to back it up - and to my mind, screenshots of websites & IP logs just don’t cut it. If you DO have that rock hard evidence, you should be telling your lawyers, and keeping the rest to yourself.
Brian - I’ve watched the debate over at Dosh Dosh and now here and I still don’t quite understand exactly what it is that has annoyed you to the point of legal action.
Initially, as I understood it, the issue was about content theft in terms of the article itself. Now it seems that the crux of the matter is that Maki may or may not have used your screen grabs without proper attribution. Is that the case?
At the risk of getting involved in a firefight, I wanted to interject some here.
In my experience, those who go public with allegations know the least about copyright law. Those who know more realize that the DMCA offers the chance to require hosts to remove the infringing material. It also offers severe penalties for those that misuse that power.
Those who go public with such complaints either A) Don’t understand copyright law B) Don’t feel they have a strong case or C) Are seeking publicity.
The first is understandable as copyright is nuanced and complicated. I definitely sympathize. Hopefully, if that is the case, this will be a lesson learned. I will happily help with this if I can.
The others though, I have a problem with. Using shame to either bolster a weak case or gain publicity is immoral and, possibly, illegal. It opens up the possibility of libel suits.
I have a strict policy to never encourage my clients to go public with accusations of plagiarism. I only even mention the possibility after all other methods, including legal, have been exhausted.
The case itself, from a legal standpoint, is weak. The images themselves are not copyrightable. They are derivative works of the sites they were taken from, which are in turn copyrighted by the companies that own them. Fair use allows their use for commentary or criticism, but they are derivatives.
You also can not copyright facts or an idea. Thus, neither the idea for the post nor the list of sites obtains no protection.
Thus, all that remains is the broader, ethical charge of plagiarism. I’m not going to comment on that too much, but the idea itself has been around for a long time and there are many other articles on the subject.
Could Maki have gotten the idea from SEOPosition? Sure. But he also could have gotten it from anywhere else. Simply visiting a similar article before posting one does not equal plagiarism.
The problem that I have is that there is so much serious content theft going on right now between RSS scrapers, verbatim plagiarists and copyrwriters with bad morals, to let something like this become such a big deal.
I’d much rather spend my time worrying about the real bad guys than whether or not another site took my idea, which had already been done before, or a few images that were trivial to create and aren’t even mine.
In the big scheme, even at its worst, this is minor. I’d rather put all hatchets aside and start dealing with the real bad guys. There are plenty of them out there.
Disclaimer: I am not an attorney, though I am very familiar with these issues. If you need legal advice, please seek an attorney.
Thanks for making the point about the screen grabs, Jonathan. That was going to be my next point to Brian if he came back.
I really hope the whole thing will just blow over. It does neither side any good having this public slanging match and, equally, taking it legal would only result in one winner. The lawyer.
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Mike and Jonathan,
First, I never said I was taking anyone to court. If you’d read the comments carefully, I’ve said as plain as day that I was only going to have my attorneys POSSIBLY review the crude, defamatory remarks being said because I DID NOT KNOW the law.
So, why you insinuate that I was going to take someone to court or even sue is way off base.
Lots of what you guys have mentioned above is only going off of partial comments and remarks but you seem to only get the story about half right.
Mike:
“IP logging is no proof of a particular person reading an article, but really very little of this bears up at all”
Mike, about the IP issue - you have it all wrong here. IP logs and the exact IP address from a computer and which pages they were on is VERY valid and used primarily for tracking within legal cases. Why do you think the law uses it, police use it, and SBI or FBI use it within any prosecution or court hearings dealing with the Internet. How exactly can you dismiss this being the truth??
Mike:
“Brian - I’ve watched the debate over at Dosh Dosh and now here and I still don’t quite understand exactly what it is that has annoyed you to the point of legal action.”
I never said I was seeking legal action. Please show me anywhere where I said I was seeking legal action! I said that I may have my legal team review the defamatory remarks because I did not know the law. And, I also pointed out several top online legal references where some very similar cases were won that were very similar to remarks by commenters like Susie, who was one of the first people name calling. Lots of people also jumped right in and did the same. Perhaps b/c they are just angry people trying to get out their aggression - I don’t know.
And, for the IP logs we have, DoshDosh was on our site the day he posted his blog reviews post but yet he forgot being there even though his post was the exact same topic? Going even further, his initial email to me while this was discussed via email only he says clearly that he was never on our site until well after his story was posted.
Very strange indeed!
Jonathan, the reason I got really bad vibes from this is that DoshDosh says in several places on his site was when in doubt about outgoing references, give credit. Seems odd to not follow your own advice, asking that I don’t display his IP tracked through our site page, staying on that particular blog review page for nearly 20 minutes, and then saying stuff like he didn’t remember ever being on the site at all but that it could’ve been someone at his house… another very strange coincidence I suppose.
Jonathan:
“Those who go public with such complaints either A) Don’t understand copyright law B) Don’t feel they have a strong case or C) Are seeking publicity.”
and
“Hopefully, if that is the case, this will be a lesson learned. I will happily help with this if I can.”
Please do, I’d like to see you help, because that doesn’t make any sense to me.
I’m not looking to gain anything from this happening. If I did I would not have tried to get in touch with Maki a few times before posting on our site.
Brian,
First up the IP logging statement was not made by me. Maybe you were skim reading too, eh?
Secondly, I haven’t got time to wade through the initial discussion that took place on Dosh Dosh but my memory suggests that you made veiled threats regarding legal action. If that is not the case then why are you still pursuing this?
Finally, can you answer the question I asked you directly? Is it content theft in terms of the words used in the article or using the screen grabs from the article that you’re unhappy about?
ANSWER: IP comment I made. Since my reply is true, I redirect it to Chris who posted the initial remark about IPs being of no value. Sorry I got the reference wrong.
ANSWER: Until you do wade through the comments then, does it really make sense to make inaccurate comments on things you don’t necessarily know. There were absolutely ZERO threats. Your memory doesn’t serve you right and if you don’t take the time to wade thorough the comments to find the truth then why suggest me making threats? That’s why I’m pursuing this!
ANSWER: I got bent out of shape by him when he denied being on our site hours before posting his story about the same topic (and for 20-30 minutes on that page), answering me by email befhand saying he was not on our site at all, diligently saying to give credit where credit is due “even in doubt,” (quoted from him on his site on this topic of copying), and then the extreme similarities of images to the exact pixel.
I know IP’s are used in legal cases, but they are still not proof a particular person read anything.Of course if only one person has access to a particular PC & internet connection, they can be construed as such, but not with a shared computer/connection.
But as you’re not going legal with this, it doesn’t matter does it?
I click on dozens of links all the time whilst surfing, opening multiple tabs, which stay open while I go downstairs for dinner, and which are sometimes closed again without being read if I get bored/run out of time etc. I have yet to see any solid evidence that justifies the accusations of theft that you made publicly against Dosh Dosh.
There is no copyright on inspiration for articles - no text was cut & pasted, no original images were hotlinked or stolen (Sorry, but I just don’t see that at all)therefore no attribution was owed.
The original article on Dosh Dosh: http://www.doshdosh.com/seoposition-attacks-dosh-dosh-with-blatantly-false-and-inaccurate-accusations/
Comment 55 - “We’ve grabbed a complete copy of this page for our own legal team to review since you are allowing people to libel my name without any idea of what’s been said between you and I offline and/or knowledge or facts of the topic. All of the web sites and libelous statements will be kept for review.”
“This just isn’t so and I can prove it with our tracking software. It doesn’t lie and neither does your IP address. So why would you say the above statement? I don’t get it.
Also, why would you not share this important piece of information on your post above? I’ll post this on our site once we get approval from our attorneys to show everyone, but I don’t lie so I don’t feel like I need to defend myself unless we’re given approval to post it.”
“I will be more than glad to post more on our site either today or tomorrow upon approval from our attorneys.”
How’s about that for a start? If you’re going to say that you legal team were only going to get involved because of the “libelous” comments made then why would you need to get approval from your attorney to show that Maki had been on your site?
It seems to me that your beef is about him possibly using your screen grabs. At what point did you ask the site owners permission to generate the screen grabs and post them on your site?
Reads like a threat of legal action to me… In fact, it’s not so much a threat, as implied that legal action has begun. I don’t know many attorneys who do anything for free.
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